McCall Sacked

[lady-isobel-barnett]

14 minutes ago, Lenziejag said:

I think it is normal for stats to get worse the longer a manager stays and would also be skewed depending on how long spent in each tier. Would be interesting to see the stats broken down further.

You're correct. So it's difficult to compare like for like and near impossible to rate a manager on stats. Even if we were always in the same division managers have had widely varying playing budgets.

Had it not been for the introduction of the play offs Dick Campbell's stats may well have been superior to John Lambie's. We'd have had another season in the third tier where we'd have certainly picked up more points than we scraped up under The Bunnet in the tier above.

Had Dundee purchased Bob Harris from QoS in early July 09, McCall would possibly also have enjoyed a better hit rate. Harkins transfer wouldn't have gone thru, almost certainly sticking us into administration. A subsequent points reduction would be enough to see us back in Division One, where McCall's win rate may well have improved.

Whatever, there's too much what-aboutery to rate managers from different eras on results alone. 

[Jimmy McD]

If you include the Aberdeen game in the league cup we had 6 defeats in a row, then having to rely on Snedds scoring at Cove to rescue a point ,then another defeat Vs q. P.at New year, and we did not exactly cover ourselves in glory Vs Dunfermline 1.1. at full time,then we go onto Hamilton and Cove, it's been a painful watch at a lot of the games this season, only real highlights 5. 1. V, I .C.T.  and 5. 1. V Morton.. The timing was wrong but correct decision... Forgot to mention that Falkirk put us out of the Challenge Cup..

[Lenziejag]

21 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

This is True - However the following Quote from TJF Questions the accuracy of previous Directors Statements - yet the current Board seem to be accepting that there was an adequate Budget for Promotion ( despite the fact that TJF had to fund the resigning of a Player in January ) ? 

So which part are we to accept - or is there Cherry Picking to suit a View of the Management Team ?   

Or its been suggested in the Press - that Performances against Hamilton & Cove were the deciding Factor ? 

So the bottom line is - which version is correct ?   

I will go further. The accuracy of the Directors' Statement in the Annual Accounts (which claims, in effect, that a conscious decision was made to overspend to increase the player budget) must be doubted, given the answers given on this point at the AGM.

 

I have no doubt the current board have had to double down on the decision to sack the management team on Sunday night, which for me is a week too early at least given the strength of the squad that was available vs Rangers and the fact that we put up a good performance in the 1st half and held out for most of the 2nd. Unfortunately, it looks like the current board were oblivious to this which doesn’t bode well.

[Lenziejag]

7 minutes ago, Jimmy McD said:

If you include the Aberdeen game in the league cup we had 6 defeats in a row, then having to rely on Snedds scoring at Cove to rescue a point ,then another defeat Vs q. P.at New year, and we did not exactly cover ourselves in glory Vs Dunfermline 1.1. at full time,then we go onto Hamilton and Cove, it's been a painful watch at a lot of the games this season, only real highlights 5. 1. V, I .C.T.  and 5. 1. V Morton.. The timing was wrong but correct decision... Forgot to mention that Falkirk put us out of the Challenge Cup..

I guess the Falkirk game showed that the backup wasn’t good enough to start and from the Aberdeen game until now, we haven’t had anything like a full squad to pick from. Maybe, just maybe, with a full squad we play and get results like the start of the season. So for me, the timing was definitely wrong - the decision may have been wrong too.

[Jordanhill Jag]

36 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

I’m not sure that I can be objective regarding McCall and possibly yourself for opposite opinions.

Fair enough - however the numbers are there to see - one point away from a Play Off Spot with a third of the Season to go = the Sack 

And the Plan B is a Coach who has only ever worked with Kids in his Training Academy 

Suppose we will only see if the Boards Bold Move is correct over the next few weeks 

However if we miss the Play Off Spots by a margin greater than a point - I would expect them to do the honorable thing 

 

 

 

[Deboy]

Has anyone asked Peter Murrell for some money?

[Lambies Lost Doo]

4 minutes ago, Deboy said:

Has anyone asked Peter Murrell for some money?

Gerry did you ask for a tap?

"I can't recall"

[Dick Dastardly]

23 minutes ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

Fair enough - however the numbers are there to see - one point away from a Play Off Spot with a third of the Season to go = the Sack 

And the Plan B is a Coach who has only ever worked with Kids in his Training Academy 

Suppose we will only see if the Boards Bold Move is correct over the next few weeks 

However if we miss the Play Off Spots by a margin greater than a point - I would expect them to do the honorable thing 

 

 

 

Firstly, it depends on how you interpret “interim” but personally I doubt that Doolan will be in place for more than a couple of games. I certainly hope not.

Secondly, the statements so far don’t make any reference to any targets being changed, so I would assume that promotion is still the aim for this season.

It could be that Doolan will be in place until the end of the season but only get the permanent job if we do get promoted. That would allow a new man to come in with a clean slate and targets appropriate to next season’s budget 

[Jordanhill Jag]

12 minutes ago, Dick Dastardly said:

Firstly, it depends on how you interpret “interim” but personally I doubt that Doolan will be in place for more than a couple of games. I certainly hope not.

Secondly, the statements so far don’t make any reference to any targets being changed, so I would assume that promotion is still the aim for this season.

It could be that Doolan will be in place until the end of the season but only get the permanent job if we do get promoted. That would allow a new man to come in with a clean slate and targets appropriate to next season’s budget 

Fair Enough 

And as stated - if we finish more than a Point off the Play Off Spot - I expect the Board to do the right thing at the end of the Season as they made the decisions    

[javeajag]

What happens if dools loses 6 in a row ….

[Big Col]

3 minutes ago, javeajag said:

What happens if dools loses 6 in a row ….

Cheery chap you are. Bet you’re a hoot at parties.

No one has a crystal ball, but under McCall we were on a downward trajectory with no sign of that changing. Surely you must have seen that when you were at the last two league games?

[Woodstock Jag]

5 hours ago, eljaggo said:

MarciaBlane is spot-on!

Just say it in plain language using Mark Twain's dictum:  "Use small words and use old words"

Bluntly, this isn’t a plain situation. It’s a complicated and technical one. If things are oversimplified they will (a) mislead (b) lose nuance and (c) expose relevant parties to financial and legal risks.

So it is a delicate balancing act.

[Jordanhill Jag]

23 minutes ago, javeajag said:

What happens if dools loses 6 in a row ….

If we finish more than one point away from the Play Off Spot - then that is failure-  and those who took the decisions are accountable  - obviously Dools is not responsible on any level 

However I fail to see with the various statements on Finances-  how we fund a replacement Management Team ( rather than Dools ) whilst still paying the existing one - where is the Money Coming from ?  

 

 

[Jordanhill Jag]

23 minutes ago, Big Col said:

Cheery chap you are. Bet you’re a hoot at parties.

No one has a crystal ball, but under McCall we were on a downward trajectory with no sign of that changing. Surely you must have seen that when you were at the last two league games?

Fair Enough - but if the downward trajectory is more rapid than the previous Management Team - what then - the Rangers Game showed we can play - so its incorrect to say there was No Sign of Changing   

[javeajag]

27 minutes ago, Big Col said:

Cheery chap you are. Bet you’re a hoot at parties.

No one has a crystal ball, but under McCall we were on a downward trajectory with no sign of that changing. Surely you must have seen that when you were at the last two league games?

You can predict McCall would fail to get us up…..what do u predict about dools ?

[Fawlty Towers]

35 minutes ago, javeajag said:

What happens if dools loses 6 in a row ….

Easy - he does not get the job of manager.

[dibble]

I worry that a few of the players including the captain who were close to McCall down tools- one of the risks in sacking mccall

[Fawlty Towers]

If one was being harsh it was unfair of the previous Board to give McCall an objective of promotion from the Championship as that is something he has never achieved. Clearly he would accept this as people tend to think "I will get it this time" hence why when I tee off on the first hole I am thinking 10 under par but it does not happen as I am not that good.

I started a thread several months ago about his position and for the record I wanted him gone then so I am not going to be saying anything different now. Would have announcing it on Monday been better - possibly but I am firmly of the opinion that a change needed to made.

[Jordanhill Jag]

4 minutes ago, dibble said:

I worry that a few of the players including the captain who were close to McCall down tools- one of the risks in sacking mccall

Exactly 

Dools may be a Legend to the Fans -but the Squad dont know him from Adam 

With Kenny Arthur served notice ( but working out his time ) how do they think there is going to be a bounce ? 

[BowenBoys]

8 minutes ago, Fawlty Towers said:

If one was being harsh it was unfair of the previous Board to give McCall an objective of promotion from the Championship as that is something he has never achieved. Clearly he would accept this as people tend to think "I will get it this time" hence why when I tee off on the first hole I am thinking 10 under par but it does not happen as I am not that good.

I started a thread several months ago about his position and for the record I wanted him gone then so I am not going to be saying anything different now. Would have announcing it on Monday been better - possibly but I am firmly of the opinion that a change needed to made.

I, too, was in the McCall out camp. However, had I known that we couldn't afford to sack the management team (even after a big pay day) and that McCall's replacement would be someone who had never managed a professional football team, I might have held a different view.

I fear the club, now, is in a very tight corner.

[watties wallies]

got a sense on here that we are underrating Kris Doolan

if doolan can get the players onside, they are professionals are they not, we will do ok

we do have a good group of talented footballers at firhill

let's get behind the team, our team, 

onwards and upwards  

 

 

[Woodstock Jag]

Any change of manager is always an unknown quantity, especially when an untested manager is then brought in.

I am assuming that the Club Board has concluded that Ian McCall is unable, or very unlikely, to meet the objective he was set at the start of the season given recent performances.

They obviously think a change improves those prospects, and have acted accordingly.

If they are wrong, and (say) Ian McCall would have secured us a 2nd place finish, the Club would be £240k or so better off in prize money if they hadn’t put him on gardening leave.

If it makes performances on the pitch worse, and we finish, say, 8th, this makes very little difference to the financial picture versus a 5th placed finish (about £50k).

I am assuming (based on the phrase “relieved of duties”) that we are simply paying off the outgoing managing team in the manner we did with Archie: not all up-front. So it’s no “new” cost there.

Putting Doolan in charge limits any increase to the wage bill, especially if the promotion is on an interim basis and they reassess if things go hellishly wrong. The financial “risk” doing it this way is therefore much lower than bringing someone in from externally before the summer (reasonable guess that would be a large 5 or low 6 figure commitment, needing basically a 2nd place finish for it to be pulled off).

If Doolan makes a hash of it? No significant impact on the financial or footballing wellbeing of the Club unless it really is relegation playoff territory.

If he gets a bit of a bump in results? Potentially anything between £80k and £240k better off than where things stand now.

Against the backdrop of the Club describing the position as “challenging” to meet the budgeted expectations set at the start of the season, that is a potentially very significant payoff for relatively little risk.

Unless you think Ian McCall was on the cusp of overtaking either or both Queen’s Park and Dundee with 13 games left.

Purely personal opinion? We would miss out on the playoffs or finish 4th at best on current form. But that’s just finger in the air and vibes territory on the football side. On the financial side, unless you think McCall was going to get us up to 2nd or 3rd, this is a decision that’s perfectly rational even if it turns out to be wrong.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Woodstock Jag

[Auld Jag]

5 minutes ago, BowenBoys said:

I, too, was in the McCall out camp. However, had I known that we couldn't afford to sack the management team (even after a big pay day) and that McCall's replacement would be someone who had never managed a professional football team, I might have held a different view.

I fear the club, now, is in a very tight corner.

I was thinking along the same line. I wonder how many Thistle fans would have wanted McCall sacked who has 901 games in management and replaced by the legend who is Kris Doolan, but not managed at all. If we were completely out of the race for the play offs i would agree with him being sacked. But, and i accept we have been very poor recently, we are still in with a chance of 4th. 

[jlsarmy]

5 hours ago, Jordanhill Jag said:

The Objective is Promotion - with QP - realistically this was always going to be via the Play Offs - we are one point away from the Play Offs - who we beat or dont beat is irrelevant - they were not sacked for losing to Cove - they were sacked for not being in a Promotion Spot as targeted at the start of the Season   

Hi JJ,  think QP are actually ahead of schedule and it looks like they don’t want to go up this year , possibly why they let their best player in Simon Murray go to Ross County in the January window.

I think Dundee will get automatic promotion 

[jlsarmy]

1 hour ago, Deboy said:

Has anyone asked Peter Murrell for some money?

Don’t tell Nicola though