Rangers Fc- A Nation Mourns?

[Lindau]

That's a perfect example of something I've been thinking about recently. Always been quite a bit anti-Rangers but have always felt a bit unsure when challenged about this sometimes.

 

But now! The way the clubs representatives (not just the most blant crooks and toerags like Whyte) like jardine, McCoist, Smith etc. have acted, demanding this and that - when they were the ones in the wrong - and even making threats. The way an awful lot of their fans have acted, way way out of order at times and bringing up sectarian bile and threats. The majority? I don't know, some RFC fans have said it should be 3rd division for them but even among them a lot are for this because they think it will hurt the other clubs, not really out of contrition.

 

What I'm taking ages to say (as not taking time to think it through first) is that recent events have not only confirmed what I felt before but have made me feel I used to think too well of them in the past.

 

Cant imagine that there is one Rankers fan that wants them in Div 3. Its all just a front!! Two in my work were adamant that they wanted the club to start again in Div 3....then we went to the pub and they elongated the statement to....it will destroy all the other teams that vote against us going straight back into the SPHell. Thats what you are up against with this lot. The majority think they are being hard done to.....You couldnt make it up. If they get straight back in, I will never attend another Jags v Newco game for the remainder of my life and if we get any team that voted to save them at Firhil or away from home I will be going to the pub instead!!!

[Gary Peebles Tackle]

Interesting piece in The Herald today that I think should be at least listened to before the powers that be do anything...

 

Very fair point I'd say. I can't believe (well, I can) that Dundee are at it again - they truly have no shame!

 

 

Dundee bid lacks merit, says Raith chief

 

Turnbull Hutton, the Raith Rovers director, believes the prospect of Dundee replacing Rangers in the Scottish Premier League illustrates the dismal state of Scottish football's finances.

 

Should a newco Rangers fail to be granted entry to the top flight after a vote by SPL clubs then they would potentially be forced to start life in the Irn-Bru third division. That could lead to a shuffling among Scottish football's divisions, with Dundee – who finished second in the first division last season – already tipped to take Rangers' place in the top flight.

 

"You now have the prospect of a team which has been in administration twice replacing a club going to the wall; don't try and tell me the game in Scotland is fine," said Hutton. "Dundee did well to stay in the first division but the bottom line is they paid six pence in a pound to all their creditors and cleared all their debts. Other clubs could look to go down that route – take the hit and rebuild – but choose not to; now Dundee will get the chance to replace another club which was mismanaged in the top flight."

 

Turnbull's discontent follows news that Dundee have signed two of his club's players this summer, in Iain Davidson and John Baird. "It sticks in the craw to be outbid by a club which has suffered serious financial problems in the recent past," said Hutton. "We will just continue to live within our means and struggle on."

Edited June 15, 2012 by Gary Peebles Tackle

[Mr Scruff]

Interesting piece in The Herald today that I think should be at least listened to before the powers that be do anything...

 

Very fair point I'd say. I can't believe (well, I can) that Dundee are at it again - they truly have no shame!

 

 

Dundee bid lacks merit, says Raith chief

 

Turnbull Hutton, the Raith Rovers director, believes the prospect of Dundee replacing Rangers in the Scottish Premier League illustrates the dismal state of Scottish football's finances.

 

Should a newco Rangers fail to be granted entry to the top flight after a vote by SPL clubs then they would potentially be forced to start life in the Irn-Bru third division. That could lead to a shuffling among Scottish football's divisions, with Dundee – who finished second in the first division last season – already tipped to take Rangers' place in the top flight.

 

"You now have the prospect of a team which has been in administration twice replacing a club going to the wall; don't try and tell me the game in Scotland is fine," said Hutton. "Dundee did well to stay in the first division but the bottom line is they paid six pence in a pound to all their creditors and cleared all their debts. Other clubs could look to go down that route – take the hit and rebuild – but choose not to; now Dundee will get the chance to replace another club which was mismanaged in the top flight."

 

Turnbull's discontent follows news that Dundee have signed two of his club's players this summer, in Iain Davidson and John Baird. "It sticks in the craw to be outbid by a club which has suffered serious financial problems in the recent past," said Hutton. "We will just continue to live within our means and struggle on."

While it's easy to have sympathy with what he says, where does he want to take this? Every club that's been in administration/ agreed a p/£ creditors deal just 'goes away' (or is punished for ever in such a way that they'd be as well going away)? That list would include a lot of current Scottish clubs (including our own...)

 

As I say, I do sympathise and agree that financial mismanagement skews sporting equality and thus deserves punishment, but it would seem self defeating to me make every punishment a death sentence (or life 'imprisonment').

[Jagtastic]

All of this "send them to the 3rd div", "forced to start again in the 3rd" is starting to get to me a bit.

 

I was under the impression that in order to be ALLOWED to start in the 3rd division, they would have to first apply and then be voted in by the 30 member clubs of the SFL? And that even before any application could be entertained, they would first of all have to provide 3 years worth of accounts to prove themselves viable.

 

True or false?

[Mr Scruff]

All of this "send them to the 3rd div", "forced to start again in the 3rd" is starting to get to me a bit.

 

I was under the impression that in order to be ALLOWED to start in the 3rd division, they would have to first apply and then be voted in by the 30 member clubs of the SFL? And that even before any application could be entertained, they would first of all have to provide 3 years worth of accounts to prove themselves viable.

 

True or false?

As I understand it:

 

True - they would have to apply to the Scottish League.

False - they would have to provide 3 years accounts (the rules have this as 'discretionary', according to the SFA via the BBC).

 

Remember our case against the SFA? They seem to have provision that they can change 'the rules' whenever. And the SPL have no rules relating to a Newco, but we hope that they do the morally right thing for the sake of sporting integrity...

[Steven H]

All of this "send them to the 3rd div", "forced to start again in the 3rd" is starting to get to me a bit.

 

I was under the impression that in order to be ALLOWED to start in the 3rd division, they would have to first apply and then be voted in by the 30 member clubs of the SFL? And that even before any application could be entertained, they would first of all have to provide 3 years worth of accounts to prove themselves viable.

 

True or false?

 

That's my understanding of it too, also, do they not need to apply for SFA membership? Think this hybrid-liquidation thingy has muddied the waters big time, is the club still an SFA/SPL member (given the apparently have a vote re Newco getting into the SPL)?

 

Anyway,

here's my argument for the only option being demotion to SFL3 (or rather, being forced to apply for entry to SFL3) . All the arguments about why and how Rangers ended up in administration and pending liquidation are null and void at this stage, all that matters now is what to do with Newco. The precedent has already been set with Livingston and Gretna(?) being relegated to SFL3 but this is slightly different, likewise with Juve and other Italian clubs suffering the same fate. Any Newco club (whether it be Rangers or Albion Rovers) who want to get into Scottish Professional football should apply for the vacancy, a vacancy which should only be in the 3rd div. If Newco do this it will give them at least 3 years (2 if league reconstruction occurs) to focus on getting their house in order, working with Scottish players and getting some sort of respect back. Call it taking your punishment. As a result of this, Newco will also go some way to helping the whole of Scottish football (and repaying some of the debt they owe the game here...the wider game, not the SPL closed shop they help prop up) by filling the coffers of wee clubs like East Stirling, Albion Rovers, Ayr Utd. By the time they get back to the top league they will have served their European ban, sorted the club out and able to compete. If that happens then Newco will have at least regained some respect in my opinion, and what sporting integrity left in this country will remain intact.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Steven H

[Jagtastic]

As I understand it:

 

True - they would have to apply to the Scottish League.

False - they would have to provide 3 years accounts (the rules have this as 'discretionary', according to the SFA via the BBC).

 

Remember our case against the SFA? They seem to have provision that they can change 'the rules' whenever. And the SPL have no rules relating to a Newco, but we hope that they do the morally right thing for the sake of sporting integrity...

 

 

Ok, it was really the accounts part that I wasn't exactly sure of but in any case, I would expect that if the SFA allow them to transfer their membership then that would be good enough for the SFL to let them apply.

 

Which leads to the point on the vote. How would we expect our club to vote and would fans feel obliged to put pressure on the board in the same way that, for example, Aberdeen fans have to vote against their admittance? I'd certainly be pinging an email to Mr Beattie.

[Gary Peebles Tackle]

While it's easy to have sympathy with what he says, where does he want to take this? Every club that's been in administration/ agreed a p/£ creditors deal just 'goes away' (or is punished for ever in such a way that they'd be as well going away)? That list would include a lot of current Scottish clubs (including our own...)

 

As I say, I do sympathise and agree that financial mismanagement skews sporting equality and thus deserves punishment, but it would seem self defeating to me make every punishment a death sentence (or life 'imprisonment').

 

I just find it really sickening that they are up to their old tricks again (signing the best from the rest) despite only just being out of admin. A signing ban actually makes sense here - Dundee seem to keep doing it. They should've gone to 3rd Div in my opinion - especially after the SECOND time!!!

 

We never actually went as far as administration and, to my knowledge, paid all of our creditors. As a Jags fan I often take the moral high ground, and in this case, justifiably so.

 

R*angers & Dundee can GTF. Total farce of a situation as the Raith fella says.

[Mr Scruff]

I just find it really sickening that they are up to their old tricks again (signing the best from the rest) despite only just being out of admin. A signing ban actually makes sense here - Dundee seem to keep doing it. They should've gone to 3rd Div in my opinion - especially after the SECOND time!!!

 

We never actually went as far as administration and, to my knowledge, paid all of our creditors. As a Jags fan I often take the moral high ground, and in this case, justifiably so.

 

R*angers & Dundee can GTF. Total farce of a situation as the Raith fella says.

I don't really disagree with your sentiments at all, except for the fact that I don't have a hunger for the clubs you mention (or the others) to be killed off as punishment.

 

We paid our football creditors in full (this was a requirement at the time), but paid our other creditors 40p/£. We weren't in administration at the time. I know what you mean about 'moral high ground' but I take the pragmatic view that it wouldn't take much for lots of other clubs (and that may include us) to be in a similar position so it's best to 'practise what you preach'.

[Mr Scruff]

Ok, it was really the accounts part that I wasn't exactly sure of but in any case, I would expect that if the SFA allow them to transfer their membership then that would be good enough for the SFL to let them apply.

 

Which leads to the point on the vote. How would we expect our club to vote and would fans feel obliged to put pressure on the board in the same way that, for example, Aberdeen fans have to vote against their admittance? I'd certainly be pinging an email to Mr Beattie.

As I've said elsewhere I'm not in the 'kill them off' camp. I do see a situation where them starting out at div 3 would actually be very good for the whole of the Scottish game, so why not take advantage of that? Probably much better than the alternatives (them in the SPL or a LIDL in place of a 50,000 seater stadium).

 

I see this as a very rare opportunity for a restructuring, financial and sporting, from top to bottom.

[Gary Peebles Tackle]

I don't really disagree with your sentiments at all, except for the fact that I don't have a hunger for the clubs you mention (or the others) to be killed off as punishment.

 

We paid our football creditors in full (this was a requirement at the time), but paid our other creditors 40p/£. We weren't in administration at the time. I know what you mean about 'moral high ground' but I take the pragmatic view that it wouldn't take much for lots of other clubs (and that may include us) to be in a similar position so it's best to 'practise what you preach'.

 

I agree with you - I don't want them 'dead' as such, just that it needs to be addressed NOW as it will happen again. And again. And again.

 

The punishment needs to fit the crime, and if they're swanning about, signing other team's best players (a la Motherwell back in the day) then a rule needs to be made - and made very clear - that it isn't acceptable.

 

You're right, it wouldn't take much for Thistle to suffer, but with good management (e.g. living within our means), we'll be fine. And even if we're not, when was the last time we poached a player from a rival for more £? In fact, I don't ever remember that happening! I could be wrong though...

[Mr Scruff]

I agree with you - I don't want them 'dead' as such, just that it needs to be addressed NOW as it will happen again. And again. And again.

 

The punishment needs to fit the crime, and if they're swanning about, signing other team's best players (a la Motherwell back in the day) then a rule needs to be made - and made very clear - that it isn't acceptable.

 

You're right, it wouldn't take much for Thistle to suffer, but with good management (e.g. living within our means), we'll be fine. And even if we're not, when was the last time we poached a player from a rival for more £? In fact, I don't ever remember that happening! I could be wrong though...

Yup agree with all that. I think there needs to be clear rules (this is what the SFL are trying to achieve), but even then Dundee would probably be clear of them by now.

 

Motherwell's always the one that sticks in my throat. Into Administration in 2002, losing ~£2M/ year. Avoid relegation in May 2003 due to a technicality re Falkirk winning the league without a 10,000 seat stadium. In June 2003, while still in administration, sign Stephen Craigan (they exited in September), a player who would be crucial to building their team over the coming years. We couldn't afford him because we had to build a stand the previous year in 2.5 months at high cost to qualify for promotion. And then in June 2004 they vote to put us down despite the situation they benefited from the previous season being identical to "secure sporting integrity".

 

In fact, I realise it still smarts a lot - more than Dundee or Rangers. But they've qualified for the champions league this season on the back of all of that, and you just have to say good luck to them.

[Lindau]

Yup agree with all that. I think there needs to be clear rules (this is what the SFL are trying to achieve), but even then Dundee would probably be clear of them by now.

 

Motherwell's always the one that sticks in my throat. Into Administration in 2002, losing ~£2M/ year. Avoid relegation in May 2003 due to a technicality re Falkirk winning the league without a 10,000 seat stadium. In June 2003, while still in administration, sign Stephen Craigan (they exited in September), a player who would be crucial to building their team over the coming years. We couldn't afford him because we had to build a stand the previous year in 2.5 months at high cost to qualify for promotion. And then in June 2004 they vote to put us down despite the situation they benefited from the previous season being identical to "secure sporting integrity".

 

In fact, I realise it still smarts a lot - more than Dundee or Rangers. But they've qualified for the champions league this season on the back of all of that, and you just have to say good luck to them.

 

They took Alex Burns as well....really pissed me off at the time!!

[Norgethistle]

Every team in Scotland out with the SPL should apply for the SPL licence that has been left in the deciesed rangers will, all 30 clubs are more credible than newco as they have accounts, should be able to fulfill their fixtures (there could be alot of court cases and boycotts coming Ibrox way) and again if newco are rejected from SPL they should have to stand against the other teams in the waiting list to come in at div 3, and be judged on the criteria (3yrs accounts for a start) not on who they once were

[gianlucatoni]

Every team in Scotland out with the SPL should apply for the SPL licence that has been left in the deciesed rangers will, all 30 clubs are more credible than newco as they have accounts, should be able to fulfill their fixtures (there could be alot of court cases and boycotts coming Ibrox way) and again if newco are rejected from SPL they should have to stand against the other teams in the waiting list to come in at div 3, and be judged on the criteria (3yrs accounts for a start) not on who they once were

 

what he said

[lady-isobel-barnett]

While of the belief that rangers should be penalised heavily and the consensus opinion of them starting off in Div 3 is probably the most appropriate punishment that has its drawbacks. On the plus side virtually all the SFL clubs will benefit financially thru gate receipts.

On the negative side, always assuming rangers are at least of Gretna squad strength, it'll screw up the leagues with only play off places to go for in two leagues and not even that in our division. That won't be rangers fault just an unfortunate by product of the punishment.

Maybe more of a personal beef but I don't believe many (most?) of the SFL contingent deserve to benefit from increased attendances. The majority of SFL clubs in Div 2 & Div 3 are apparently satisfied with the current SFL closed shop set up and quite content to see clubs like ours and most other Div 1 clubs suffer the consequences. Any remote chance of SFL league reconstruction will be out the window while each of the SFL chairmen drool at the financial prospects of two home games against rangers or whatever they'll be called.

Whilst it'll be SPL fan pressure over chairmen that may ultimately force rangers out that league it'll be SFL chairmen winning the day over fan's wishes in our leagues for the next three seasons at least.

[Craig-W]

While of the belief that rangers should be penalised heavily and the consensus opinion of them starting off in Div 3 is probably the most appropriate punishment that has its drawbacks. On the plus side virtually all the SFL clubs will benefit financially thru gate receipts.

 

If (and it's a big if) the new Rangers do start in the third division, will they still get much of a following from the Ersehole 'Loyal'? We all know they "don't do walking away", but I can easily envisage Ibrox sparsely populated when they're playing East Stirling.

 

Obviously any team including us would still be happy with gate receipts from 10,000 fans twice a year, but will the new team still have a transfer embargo next year? Will they have to play a youth team? And how many players are going to spend at least three years in the doldrums working their way back up to the SPL? Though as you say they'll probably be at least Gretna level quality and there will always be plenty of mercenaries out there to take the dollar.

 

Wouldn't it be wonderful if they couldn't do it straight away. I would love to wander around Glasgow as Super Ally's mob finish third in the Third Division. A man can dream...

Edited June 16, 2012 by Craig-W

[Guy Incognito]

If (and it's a big if) the new Rangers do start in the third division, will they still get much of a following from the Ersehole 'Loyal'? We all know they "don't do walking away", but I can easily envisage Ibrox sparsely populated when they're playing East Stirling.

 

Obviously any team including us would still be happy with gate receipts from 10,000 fans twice a year, but will the new team still have a transfer embargo next year? Will they have to play a youth team? And how many players are going to spend at least three years in the doldrums working their way back up to the SPL? Though as you say they'll probably be at least Gretna level quality and there will always be plenty of mercenaries out there to take the dollar.

 

Wouldn't it be wonderful if they couldn't do it straight away. I would love to wander around Glasgow as Super Ally's mob finish third in the Third Division. A man can dream...

 

They obviously won't pull in anything like 50,000 punters for every home game, but I would still expect five figure crowds (just). Their core support is too large at present for them to suddenly start playing to crowds in the hundreds. I would imagine the glory hunters will give up on them though, and just watch La Liga or the EPL on TV instead.

 

As far as the actual team is concerned, the better senior players will be offski - and are probably in the process of doing just that even as I type this - as will the better youth players, e.g. Hutton, McCabe, Ness etc. That will then leave them with a team consisting of mediocre youth players but augmented by journeymen pros, for whom the prospect of playing for a team bearing the name 'Rangers' who play their home fixtures at Ibrox Park too enticing to resist.

[ian_mac]

Might get shot down for this, so be it. However, it sounds as if everyone is thinking the same thing anyway, but just can't bring themselves to say it.

 

Yes, we are meant to dislike them both equally, I am fully aware of that.

 

BUT...

 

I DISLIKE RANGERS MORE THAN I DISLIKE CELTIC. There I've said it. And here's why

 

During Save The Jags, all I remember is Rangers fans laughing at us. The remark that sticks out for me is "Serves you right for supporting that diddy team anyway".

 

Celtic fans, having been through something similar in '94, were a lot more sympathetic. Many of them commenting that they hoped we would pull through.

 

This, and the continual pish coming from Duff & Duffer, Jardine, Murray, McCoist is the reason for my controversial above statement.

Edited June 16, 2012 by ian_mac

[lady-isobel-barnett]

If (and it's a big if) the new Rangers do start in the third division, will they still get much of a following from the Ersehole 'Loyal'? We all know they "don't do walking away", but I can easily envisage Ibrox sparsely populated when they're playing East Stirling.

To expand on my point about SFL chairmen relishing two home games against rangers it has to be pointed out that average attendances in Div 2 & Div 3 will only average at a guess 500-750. Pick any non city club and I'll imagine there's about the same number of so called rangers fans are resident in that town. For instance before they did their deal with JJB Sports (?) there was a rangers shop in Elgin. So even if their fans don't travel in numbers any club throughout the country is still bound to have relatively very healthy gates twice a season. That'll be enough to ensure the tedious SFL leagues of ten remain for a minimum of another three seasons despite fan preference for larger leagues.

 

In other words wishing to see rangers punished by being out of the top division for a minimum of three seasons is dependent on the status quo of the three boring leagues of ten remaining in place for the next 3 or 4 years. It's easy for fans of SPL clubs to just say "banish rangers to the 3rd division" but in truth it's not necessarily a bonus for us fans of SFL clubs.

[Dick Dastardly]

I see that the SFA are looking at restructuring the leagues in time for next season and to include some form of relegtion from SFL3. Know what .... If this brings about REAL change in Scottish football, I reckon that is worth more than any punishment that is or is not given to Rangers. Punishment would hinder them temporarily (in 10 years time, we all know that a team resembling Rangers will be one of the top 2 in Scotland). League restructuring if done right would help everyone permanently.

[Lindau]

Might get shot down for this, so be it. However, it sounds as if everyone is thinking the same thing anyway, but just can't bring themselves to say it.

 

Yes, we are meant to dislike them both equally, I am fully aware of that.

 

BUT...

 

I DISLIKE RANGERS MORE THAN I DISLIKE CELTIC. There I've said it. And here's why

 

During Save The Jags, all I remember is Rangers fans laughing at us. The remark that sticks out for me is "Serves you right for supporting that diddy team anyway".

 

Celtic fans, having been through something similar in '94, were a lot more sympathetic. Many of them commenting that they hoped we would pull through.

 

This, and the continual pish coming from Duff & Duffer, Jardine, Murray, McCoist is the reason for my controversial above statement.

 

Pretty sure during Save The Jags the club asked several clubs for stuff that they could sell at a fundraising event. Every club donated signed balls, jerseys etc EXCEPT NEWCO who asked for payment for the signed jerseys and balls. Thats why I have no sympathy with them!!

[Lionel J. Botch]

All over twitter that there is discussion to bring the newco into div 1 rather than to div 3. There is nothing in the rules of the SFL to admit a team to their highest league. If there is a vote on this I hope Thistle give it the thumbs down. If the SPL don't want them, start at the bottom like ICT, Ross County, Elgin, Annan and Gretna (remember what heppened tho them when they went bust).

 

Sport is nothing without rules. The rules as to what should happen are clear.

[Juan Kerr]

How funny would it be if they did get dropped into the First Division next season with some sanctions...then finished 2nd.

 

There would be league reconstruction quicker than you could say: "Oh soite, that wasn't supposed to happen."

[Chicofan]

Might get shot down for this, so be it. However, it sounds as if everyone is thinking the same thing anyway, but just can't bring themselves to say it.

 

Yes, we are meant to dislike them both equally, I am fully aware of that.

 

BUT...

 

I DISLIKE RANGERS MORE THAN I DISLIKE CELTIC. There I've said it. And here's why

 

During Save The Jags, all I remember is Rangers fans laughing at us. The remark that sticks out for me is "Serves you right for supporting that diddy team anyway".

 

Celtic fans, having been through something similar in '94, were a lot more sympathetic. Many of them commenting that they hoped we would pull through.

 

This, and the continual pish coming from Duff & Duffer, Jardine, Murray, McCoist is the reason for my controversial above statement.

 

Always knew you were closet beadrattler!!

I treat both sides with equal contempt...they both say there worse than each other..the truth is they are equally as bad as each other with spades of mindless f uckwits in each support